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Does anyone know of a source of supply for 1/4″ ferrules and unions as used on our bikes? I’ve tried model engineer (steam engines) suppliers but the ferrules and unions that they supply, although 1/4″, are much smaller than those used on motorcycles.
Dave
For oil/petrol pipes and ferules try here:
https://www.vintagesupplies.com
If it is junctions or connectors you need I have used the compressed air ones (or is it pressurised water ?) available form Thorite here:
Thanks Lewis
I’ve ordered from Vintage Supplies.
Dave
I too am in need of pipe fittings but before I order would you clarify the size needed. The oil tap that fits into the tank on my 1927 bike is similar to Part No 721 (taper swivel ) on Armours online catalogue. The descriptions on Vintage Supplies taps have the thread sizes the same on each end. On my tap the thread that goes into the tank is 9.75mm outside thread with approx 28 tpi (probably 1/8 bsp. The outlet end,for which I require a nut and nipple ( 1/4in pipe ) is 11mm outside thread with approx 20 tpi. So,what thread size is that ??
( 3/8) ???
Help will be appreciated
Roger Hulett
From the first set of sizes given I’d say with 99% certainty that it is indeed 1/8BSP.
Logic says that the other size should be 1/4BSP however the nominal size for 1/4BSP is 0.516” O.D. 0.425” core and 19tpi so it is somewhat undersize.
I suspect that at some time in the past someone has buggered up the original thread and has re-cut it with the nearest available die – in this case I’m guessing 7/16UNF.
Hi Roger and efr215
The petrol tap threads that you mention are correct. The inlet side is 1/8 bsp but I’m not sure about the outlet thread type. I have a EWARTS petrol tap in my box which has a 11mm dia outlet and the thread pitch is 19 tpi. This hasn’t been turned down and re-threaded. I also have an identical pattern EWARTS tap that has a 1/4 bsp outlet.
Both these taps are the push/pull type with barrel corks and not the type with flat corks.
Dave
I’ve been rooting around in my “hope chest” (so called ‘cos ‘tis the last hope of finding wot I’m looking ‘fer) and I can confirm there are indeed fittings with a 7/16in. (11mm) x 19tpi thread, I know ‘cos I’ve found some. Fifty odd years wiv bikes and in the engineering game ‘an I’ve only just cottoned on!!! Dooh!
The BSP series came into existence for iron pipework but for finer types of piping it’s a bit on the “klunky” side. I imagine that the manufacturers chose to loosely adopt the BSP series, probably because they were already involved in pipe fittings and had some tooling handy, but modified the sizes to make a neater component that in fairness doesn’t need to be any bigger.
I’ve looked in several reference books but can find no mention of a standard for small pipework so these fittings should be regarded as peculiar to the manufacturer. There are certainly quite enough variations particularly in methods of sealing, olives, ferrules, etc. come in all shapes and sizes, certainly more than you could throw a stick at!
The down side is that taps and dies of this size are likely to be about as available as hen’s teeth so if all else fails it’ll be a screwcutting job and 19tpi is not the nicest pitch to deal with.
There is one other possibility, given that there is usually at most only five effective turns on fittings of this size and that there is only a 0,003in. pitch difference between 19tpi and 18tpi then the nearest and maybe more readily available thread is 7/16in. BSF, running a tap or die of this size down an existing thread will barely be noticed. If nothing else when a replacement parts has to be made because originals cannot be found then the making thereof will be that bit easier.
Anyway that’s the nearest you’re likely to get and what’s more they’ll never see it from the High Street!
So where does the GAS size come in (Armours advertise petrol taps with 1/4 gas??? Or is gas the same as BSP ? Very confusing for mere mortals !!
Hi all,
BSP stands for ‘British Standard Pipe’ NOT the same as GAS (slightly different). In BSP the size is the diameter of the pipe not the overall diameter.
Other types are:
BSW- British Standard Whitworth
BSF- British Standard Fine
UNF- Unified National Fine
UNC- Unified National Coarse
BA- British Association
BSC- British Standard Cycle (some just marked ‘Cycle’).
BSB- British Standard Brass
Taps and dies is BSP are common, if you do not know where from or are unable to obtain them PM me as my father sells them!! He can also measure external threads so you can get the correct size tap/die.
Merry Xmas!!
James
What’s in a name eh?
British Standard Pipe — as the name suggests a thread series originally intended for joining ferrous pipework and incidentally now adopted as the ISO standard. The designation is derived from the nominal bore of the pipe.
I suspect the appellation “Gas” is historic. As it happens I’m just old enough to have lived with gas lighting, there are even some redundant bits buried under the plaster in my current hovel.
How times have changed! It’s not that long ago gas lighting was, in towns at least, almost universal, now it’s almost forgotten. It would be hard to overestimate the impact that the introduction of gas lighting, both public and domestic, must have had on people’s lives. Probably this is where the use of “gas” crept in; we are fond of verbal shorthand, “gas” is just easier to say just like we say “bus” rather than “omnibus”. The point is that the pipe is just a means to an end; it is what it carries that is the thing and it is just happened to be gas that had the most impact on people’s lives.
Steel pipes can and are used for transporting almost any fluid, it is not that long ago that there was even a compressed air service that was commercially piped under the streets of London!
I don’t wish to start an argument with bitza1927 but other than the existence of two versions of the BSP thread, the parallel (“G” designation) and conical (“R” designation), I am unaware of a gas thread as such. I suspect the “slight difference” referred to is in fact the conical “R” type that seals on the thread rather than relying on a gasket.
If ‘yer knows different please elaborate!
Tracy Tools Ltd. in Devon, UK has 7/16 x 19tpi taps and dies available.
Try this link:
https://www.tracytools.com/tapsanddiesspecials.htm
They also advertise many other exotic sizes.
Kind regards,
Carl
Going back a few messages in this discussion, have we decided what this 7/16″ x19 tpi thread is when it comes to pipe unions? (3/16 bsp?)
This is the size of union that fits the drippers on my two speeder and also fits the oil feeds to the main bearings on most crankcases. Finding a supplier for 1/4 bsp unions is not a problem (http://www.vintagesupplies.com) but as yet I haven’t found a source for the “3/16 bsp” if that is what it is.
Dave
These fittings are something of a bastard child. The only thing that these 7/16in. x 19tpi fittings really have to do with the BSP series is the 19tpi. pitch and that their function is to hold bits of tubing together! It is easy enough then to see why they all get lumped under the general heading of “plumbing”!
The 19tpi pitch, (1/4 & 3/8 BSP), is as far as I am aware unique to the BSP series. Certainly the 7/16in. O.D. has nothing to do with BSP based as it is on the bore of the pipe plus the wall thickness and thus none of the threads in the BSP family finish up with nice round numbers.
The real difference between BSP and these fittings is that the thread is not made on the pipe but on the parts fitted to the pipe. That shift coupled with thin walled solid drawn tube permits of much lighter section parts and that in turn requires different threads.
My guess is that what we have is an historical adaptation; companies making iron fittings would have had tooling to hand so when they branched out into the lighter, mostly nonferrous fittings, they made use of what they had. After all if you have a capstan set up for 19tpi threads why change it?
And if you have a spare moment over Christmas ponder on this: Small stuff is called tube, big stuff is called pipe. So then the question is at what point does a tube become a pipe?
‘Appy Christmas all!
efr215
It depends whether you’re snorting or smoking!!!!!
Dave
@efr215 wrote:
These fittings are something of a bastard child. The only thing that these 7/16in. x 19tpi fittings really have to do with the BSP series is the 19tpi. pitch and that their function is to hold bits of tubing together! It is easy enough then to see why they all get lumped under the general heading of “plumbing”!
The 19tpi pitch, (1/4 & 3/8 BSP), is as far as I am aware unique to the BSP series. Certainly the 7/16in. O.D. has nothing to do with BSP based as it is on the bore of the pipe plus the wall thickness and thus none of the threads in the BSP family finish up with nice round numbers.
The real difference between BSP and these fittings is that the thread is not made on the pipe but on the parts fitted to the pipe. That shift coupled with thin walled solid drawn tube permits of much lighter section parts and that in turn requires different threads.
My guess is that what we have is an historical adaptation; companies making iron fittings would have had tooling to hand so when they branched out into the lighter, mostly nonferrous fittings, they made use of what they had. After all if you have a capstan set up for 19tpi threads why change it?
And if you have a spare moment over Christmas ponder on this: Small stuff is called tube, big stuff is called pipe. So then the question is at what point does a tube become a pipe?
If small stuff is called a tube why do we refer to petrol and oil pipes?
‘Appy Christmas all!