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BRIAN MARSHALL.
jonathanjoyHi, Scott speedway special for sale on ebay
regards Jonathan
Anonymousyou’ve got to ask where the pictures of the actual bike are rather than copies of a magazine article….. £25k is a lot of money for a copy of the mag!
Caveat emptor…
Cheers,
Rich
BRIAN MARSHALLAnother BIG problem, which I found when I rebuilt a Dirt-Track Scott, is what to do with it when you have done the job!! With no brakes at all, and only one footrest, and only suitable for left-hand bends, the only place to exercise one is at a vintage speedway demo, like the ones they have/had ( ? ) at the BMF Rallies at Peterborough. Mine was a slightly later bike with Speedway Webb forks, copied from the Harley Peashooter racers. It also had 28″ beaded edge tyres, an odd retro move by the factory from the 26″ wired-edge tyres of the earlier version, probably done to get more ground clearance to enable them to be laid over at more extreme angles as the sport developed. Another factor which stopped me from riding it was severe rusting of the unobtainable forks, which I found had been lead filled by the previous owner Derrick Shire ! In doing so he managed to pour a large amount of molten lead onto the top of his foot, which put him in hospital for a long time, and left him badly scarred. On finding the lead-filled forks I stopped the restoration, and had done little more than rebuild the wheels, which were also rotten after standing for years with flat tyres on the very damp brick floor of the museum at Stanford Hall. I was also disheartened by the lack of opportunities to try it out, and so sold it to a vintage speedway collector. I last saw it a couple of years ago when it was being sold in the autojumble at the Stafford Show.
BRIAN MARSHALLAnd another couple of points…… For that kind of money I would want to see a BTH K2R 1 Dirt-track magneto, the square-bodied model very similar to a TT magneto, but L/H rotation,driven off the clutch.
The gearbox is also wrong, being a road type with kickstart boss clearly visible. It should have the pukka Dirt-Track gearbox, which externally looks the same as a TT box, with a circular plate held in place with three 2BA C/S screws, instead of the K/S boss. Also, a large piece of gauze should be enclosing the carburettor to keep out the flying cinders and shale. Whilst the Firkins have done a nice job, some vital pukka D/T parts are absent, which in my mind would hold the value well down. The journalist’s comments about the hand gear lever (photo caption) are not knowledge based, because the vast majority of bikes sold had NO GEARS in the box ! It was only there to provide a mainshaft to hang the clutch on, ie. to act as a countershaft, so there would be no layshaft, no cogs, and no gear-changing during a race. A few were supplied with gears and layshaft in the box, and also a small back brake, offering owners a dual-purpose bike that could also be ridden in grass-track races. I could go on and on, but won’t…. If anyone needs a D/T radiator I still have my old spare, that came off the late John Hartshorne’s sprint bike, too small for the road, but fine for a one mile D/T race or half-mile sprint.
Brian
chris wastellBrian, sure you didn’t pass your abandoned project on to an Aussie? 👿
BRIAN MARSHALLI’m sure that my old D/T Scott was a later type with 28″ beaded-edge wheel rims, and Speedway Webb forks, so definitely not the one in the advert ! I wouldn’t mind completing the rebuild that I started. but didn’t finish, because the bike was so spot-on correct spec., as per the period sales leaflets and photos. It would be expensive to rebuild those rotten forks, but probably now economically viable with current high prices. The RZ engine was like new inside, with no signs of real use, and it was difficult to resist the temptation to cannibalise it for all the choice bits like engine, racing magneto, etc..I’m glad that I left it alone now…
Brian
malcwebbBelieve me, it is very difficult even attempting to judge the originality of any speedway machine from the early years of the sport. Catalogue illustrations are not very much help either.
Rudge, for instance, illustrated a stripped-out gearbox in their catalogue a year after the production bikes got countershafts.
Add in the fact that it has been raced by the Aussies, and you are in something like that hilarious argument we had on the old website between the two owner of Swift prototypes
about whose bike was the most “original”!
By coincidence, when I first got involved in Vintage speedway in the 1970s, a friend, the late John Hawkin, told me about a dirt-track Scott that was too rusty to risk on the track.
I know that John was a friend of Derek Shire so I assume this is your machine Brian?
The Scott that used to appear at the BMF demo races belonged to former Oxford speedway rider Jim Gregory, who had a collection of old dirt-track machines at one time. Some year ago
I spoke to Jim about it. The main practical problem with it, according to Jim, was getting the thing off the start line and wound up. There is no time in speedway, on modern short tracks
anyway, to change gear. It was just not possible to find a compromise gear to get you off the line and put up a show against the Rudge and JAP singles.
You have to remember, of course, that in 1928 they used a rolling start, starting gates didn’t come into general use until about 1931. Some of the early production dirt-machines like Rudge and
Douglas didn’t even have a clutch (that would be extra sir!).
I can give you a few details of a Scott dirt-track rider who was very popular in 1928 and is totally forgotten now. His name was Alf Read. His brother, Haydon “Charlie” Read was a friend of my
fathers from the time when they were workmates at Scammell Lorries. When I started to get interested in speedway, Charlie told me a number of stories of his involvement in the first year of
the sport in the UK : 1928.
The Read brothers were part of a local group of lads trying their hands in the “open” races at their local Yorkshire tracks including Wombwell and Owlerton ( Sheffield – still running today ).
This was during the Depression of course and the money to be made from “dirt-Track” was a huge attraction to the local lads. This was before betting was outlawed, and Charlie got involved in
a race-fixing group, financed by their local butcher, who provided 4 brand new AJS bikes, and a list of the results of the “next” races !
They soon got rumbled and had to earn their money the hard way.
When Charlie told me about this ( over 40 years later ) he was still slightly bitter that his brother Alf and his Scott carried on getting bookings at places like Owlerton when the rest of the group
didn’t. Alf didn’t have a dirt track model, it was a stripped down road bike and he didn’t have a clue about gearing. His technique was to ride at the back of the field with his machine belching
steam and oil smoke (deliberatly according to his brother) passing only those who had already fallen off!
It worked, for a time at least, the crowds loved him and the promoters kept booking him. Next season of course, it all got more professional. I have never managed to find any record of Alf
Read and his dirt Scott, it would be a shame if he was forgotten!
Malcolm
BRIAN MARSHALLI can remember two D/T Scotts being demonstrated at BMF Peterborough Rallies, maybe 20 years ago, and if I remember rightly, the Jim Gregory bike had a Velocette LE radiator.
The one I had, ex-Derrick Genge Shire, was in very good order apart from the lead-filled rotten forks, and the rotten wheel rims from contact with the damp floor in Stanford Hall Museum, but I didn’t find out about the forks for quite a while ! Derrick did tell me the horror story of badly burning his foot with molten lead, but never told me what he was doing with it at the time, and I had assumed he had been “lead loading” some car body work. The production records in the VMCC library detail things like type of magneto, tyres,( usually Hutchinson Cord ), gears, if any, in the gearbox, carburettor, etc.. For some odd reason many had no frame number, perhaps because they thought it was of no relevance for a purely off-road machine. A VERY odd detail emerged when the perished tyres were removed, original looking Hutchinson Cord…..There were three security bolts to each rim, very necessary with beaded-edge tyres, but instead of being separate items they were moulded into the inner tubes !!!
Steve Lomas at Five-One Wheelbuilding has rebuilt hundreds of vintage wheels, and he had never seen this detail before. The tubes were also Hutchinson Cord.
I had a big problem locating 28″ beaded edge speedway tyres, and literally scoured the world for them, with no success. I had to settle for Coker button tread tyres, which are made for Indian, Harley, and Crocker board-track veteran racers in the USA. Not enough tread for the cinders, but OK for static display. and maybe gentle use in demonstrations.
Another thing that I never got to the bottom of when doing my research, was to find out what the differences were between the ‘R’-Type engines used in the D/T bikes and those used in TT Replicas and Sprint Specials. Were they intended to run on a different fuel, such as ‘Dope’ or Benzole ? Was the porting different ? Still no firm answers all these years later !
Brian
TedParkin😀 😀 Fascinating stuff Guys!! 😀 My Speedway bike arrived from Maui in the Hawaiian Islands via Chip Perry. It was destined to be a racer from the day of my aquisision. 😀 😀 The frame is perfect for racing with many , many mods!!!!! See the write up in the Scott Newsletter. Its now known as the MGP Scott (Moss/Gander/Parkin) . The bike raced as an outfit in the 2002 Klausen Rennen and now races as a solo. 😀 😀 Brian is correct. What to do with it when you have one! Me? I just attacked it with the savage teeth of Mr Anglegrinder. (My favorite tool!! Joke!! ) 😀 😀 Wot Larks Eh Pip!! (Dickens) Regards to all Ted 😀
malcwebbSorry Brian
I meant to reply earlier but got distracted – had to let my poor dog go on Thursday (pet owners will know what that feels like).
I am sure that John Hawkin led me to believe that it was the frame that was the problem, but it was a long time ago. I rode in many of the BMF speedway demos, on my 1929 Rudge or
1931 Rudge-JAP, when they were organised by John Stallworthy for the Vintage Club. I cant remember two Scotts but, as the modern racers say, I would have been “tightly focussed”on
my own performance!
From 1928 to 1931 there was a lot of experiment in the specification for dirt bikes, and a number of tyre firms got involved. I have a beaded edge front wheel (of the “C” section ) with a
Dunlop tyre. I have seen other beaded edge front tyre on Rudge, Douglas and Martin type front wheels.
Thirty years ago I went to a bike display at Dunstable for some event, and a chap there had a 1928 AJS which had been supplied, unregistered, equipped for “dirt-track” to the son of a
wealthy businessman. He had given it a couple of goes, decided that it was not for him, and the bike had been stored. As always, I hadn’t got a camera that day, but I am sure the bike had
28 by 3 beaded edge front and back. The guy who owned it had bought her from a neighbour, the widow of the original owner, he was more a car man than bikes.
I have never heard a thing about that machine since. It would have been such a valuable “time capsule” and reference point. I hope that it didn’t end up as a restored road bike.
When speedway bike production settled down and the market was dominated by Victor Martin, who bought manufacturing rights to the Rudge and Comerford designs, there was a choice of tyres
between Avon, Dunlop and Hutchinson. The catalogue copies I have dont’ specify the type, but they look like wired edge. By 1939 beaded edge “dirt track” tyres were advertised by Marble Arch
Motor Supplies ( the discount merchants of their day ).
Beaded edge tyres were eventually banned by ACU and later Speedway Control Board regs. This was probably in the 1950s at the time when the “big back wheel” ( 22 inch ) was banned.
Beaded edge tyres continued to be used in demo races. My beaded edge front was retired at Coventry about 15 years ago when a certain other rider took a couple of my spokes out with his
steel shoe! Amazingly we both stayed on, and I have a video of that race to remind me!
I know that he wont read this, but I bet Glyn Chambers remembers the “restored” 1905 Bercley road bike in a St Albans dealer (Clarkes? ) which in the 1960s had Dunlop dirt-track tyres and
rims front and back. That would have given Ken Cobbing something to moan about!
Finally, where does the famous Frank Varey bike live now? I know it was demonstrated at several meetings in the 1968 “50th Anniversary” celebrations. I had an idea that I saw it at that
marvellous museum that used to be in the old plating works in the centre of Birmingham ( now replaced by a “interactive, more meaningful etc etc ” disaster called Thinktank ) but I might
just have imagined it.
Malcolm
BRIAN MARSHALLHi,
Thanks for all that lovely info. I don’t know where the Frank Varey bike is now,but I have a Birmingham Industrial Museum photo of it, but haven’t seen the bike for many years. I have Derrick Shire’s photo albums, and there is a colour photo of Frank as an old man, sitting on my old DT Scott, at what appears to be a Scott Rally. Year unknown, but from adjacent haircuts and flared trousers, probably mid-1970’s
Brian.
lewis onionsThe fate of a large part of the exhibits from the old Birmingham Museum of Science and Industry in Newhall Street is something I have been considering recently. A lot of the exhibits were stored when the disasterously-named “Think Tank” was built to replace what was a fascinating place with an soulless, plastic, dumbed-down, theme resort sort of “venue”. I was invited to the opening of “Think Tank” and found that the interactive rubber lettuces which, for some reason which escapes me now you needed to punch, didn’t always emit the squeel they were designed to when treated in this way (?!). Compare that experience with the joy of being aged 8 and being able to move the several tonnes of a main line LMS steam locomotive at the flick of a switch (or for that matter climb onto the wing of a Spitfire to peer into the cock-pit) and my sense of dissappointment might be evident.
The stores are in Dollman Street and are opened to the public once a year or so. A website explains the need for the stores so as to house the “overspill”.
My interest was prompted by the discivery that one item of “overspill” was veteran Scott (and side car??) KT 4963 which has been languishing there for a number of years. A picture was posted on the web some years ago but I cannot find it now, so assume that it has been taken down. I think that Dollman Street opens in September as part of the Heritage Open days scheme. I missed it last year but intend to make enquiries of the council on behalf of the Club to see whether access would be possible. If Varey’s bike was at the Newhall Street museum it might well be in Dollman Street and when I get around to it I will make an enquiry concerning that bike too.
BRIAN MARSHALLDidn’t the same place also have the six-cylinder car engine ?
Brian
