Starting Birmingham Scott after long rest

[Brian Rowe]

I would really like some help in just how to go about ensuring proper lubrication of bearings and pistons etc. in my 59 Scott after about 15 years of laying idle. I will shortly have a new radiator from Jon Hodges . I recently purchased this bike and as it is my first Scott am hesitant to start it without taking all precautions to minimize potential problems due to initial lack of oil to necessary components. I have gone through the past forums without much luck in finding similar enquiries. I thought about mixing some oil with the fuel(petrol) at least initially. Does anyone know what ratio to use and what type of oil to use. I live in Alberta, Canada so the oils mentioned in this forum for the most or all part are not available here. There is quite a lot of oil in the oil reservoir but what kind I do not know. The bike itself has few miles on it and the engine has a lot of compression and pistons look clean through the ports. I drained the crankcases the other day and a small amount of clean oil came out of each drain plug. Should one try to attempt to put oil through the main bearings by taking lines off pump first? How about squirting a little oil through the plug holes?
Of course I am quite anxious to get “Billy” back on the road making noises like it was made to. Radiator was trashed years ago and numerous attempts to repair it ended in obvious failure as 1/3 of the entire radiator was epoxied.
Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Brian
Many thanks to Jon Hodges for his prompt and efficient service.

[Jan Buchwald]

I run mine, on synthetic two stroke oil, with the pump giving a drop every 2 or 3 second, plus I ad 1 % in the petrol.
The pump setting is next to nothing, start with high setting and work you way down.
Oil consumption should be 1000-1200 mpg.
The wells in your crankcase should be filled, it dips the big ends in this oil every stroke.
The problem with the oilpump, as I see it, is that it was built for SAE 50 oil, and is having problems handling thin oil, so go and find you a good, thick, modern two stroke oil, I use Agip Speed, do not use outboard oil.
Pumping 3-4 ccm oil through the oil lines would be a good idea, thus making shure the oil lines and the wells are filled

You can find more on: https://www.scotttechnicalities.com.au/
And in the book: The Yowling Two-Stroke by Jeff Clew (try Amazon)

Our friend Roger has a comment on oil too, see: https://www.mossengineering.co.uk/

[efr215]

In addition to Jan Buchwald’s offering the first and most obvious problem after a prolonged lay-up is that the piston rings might well be stuck in their grooves particularly if the machine was stored in anything but perfect conditions. After all 15 years is longer than most cars last!

As a precaution then it might be an idea to remove the barrel and make sure everything is as it should be. Take the crankcase doors off too, make sure all is well and give the bearings a squirt of oil while you’re in there. Certainly observe Jan’s recommendation of priming the oil supply lines. Change the gearbox lubricant too while you are at it.

The mention of “squirts” reminds me that there is a little squirt of a machine called a Moto Rumi. Yeh! That’s right it’s a scooter and Italian to boot! But at least it has the merit that it is a 2stroke and a twin and with some very original design features so I rather think Mr. Scott might have approved. Anyway, the point is that once I’d discovered Bardhal 2stroke oil things tightening up became a distant memory. Their head office is in Seattle I understand so they might be worth looking up as they were producing special formulations for vintage motor cycles a couple of years ago which means they do seem to have some interest and you should get a sympathetic hearing.

There are some very extravagant claims made for some of the “miracle” oils (snake oils?) on the market but their advantage over the lubricants from any of the household names are marginal even if their prices are not. Don’t get sucked in by all the hype, there is very little to choose between the products of the big players. That said one particular formulation might well prove to suit your machine and your particular pattern of use better than others but if you look at the original lubricant specifications and then seek an oil with similar characteristics you cannot go too far wrong. Most oil companies have a help desk and in my experience they are helpful and know their business.

[Brian Rowe]

Thank you Jan and EFR for the prompt replies. The solution is becoming clearer now through my muddled mind. Will take all under advisement with I am sure satisfactory results. The idea of changing transmission fluid has been on my mind but I have no idea what grade of oil to use in the transmission or for that matter how much. I can’t seem to see a drain hole although there is a large inspection plate that conveniently comes away and I think a filler hole fore and aft of that. Just having a tough time getting basic information on the Birmingham models as apparently there was no manual distributed during their production. Therefore I again humbly ask for direction through the maze I have recently and gladly acquired.
Brian

[Jan Buchwald]

Gearoil as thick as you can get it SAE 90. Fill through the inspection cover or through the filler hole facing up at the back/right of the gearbox.
Amount ?? There is an oil level screw sitting low, in front of the kickstarter, usually behind the footrest.

[efr215]

Q: – How do you drain a gearbox without a drain plug?
A: – You are in Canada fer crying out loud! Hire a couple of lumberjacks to hold the bike upside-down for you! That, or do what the rest of us have to do, suck hard on the end of a bit of plastic tube but don’t swallow ‘cos it’ll taste ‘orrible, take my word for it!

I’ve seen references to the use of thick oils in Scott gearboxes before and I’m somewhat puzzled as to the reason. After all the gear tooth proportions and bearings would seem to be entirely adequate for the power they are going to be required to transmit so why introduce all that extra drag? Is it an attempt to compensate for leaks caused by poor joint sealing or to limit leakage through worn main bearing that has encouraged its use? Or is there something I’ve missed?
Too thick an oil can even be counterproductive as its very gloopiness, (nice technical term that!); can limit its ability to lubricate properly. I’d certainly avoid those EP oils that smell like randy tom cats, the sulphur compounds that give them their extreme pressure properties, (and the smell), can attack bronze bearing material and there is nothing in a Scott gearbox loaded like a hypoid gear to warrent its use. Indeed the gearbox oil does not need the detergents found in many modern oils as there are no combustion by-products to deal with and the temperature variations will not be as great as in an engine so a multigrade function is less important too, all of which would point me towards a dedicated gearbox oil.

[philpjuk]

Many years ago when I was told about ep oils being not compatible with yellow metal bearings I half filled a jamjar with ep 90 and placed a handful of brass bronze oilite and other bushes,this was between 30 and 40 years ago,the jamjar has moved house with me several times and has been on a shelf in my garage and been shaken ocasionaly,the bushes seem as good now as when they were put in but the tin jam jar lid is now quite rusty and the oil smells terrible(I think it did when I put it in!)I also mixed some castrol R and some viscostatic multigrade in annother jar and this has now turned into a nasty pink jelly!phil p-j.

[Ted Robinson]

@philpjuk wrote:

Many years ago when I was told about ep oils being not compatible with yellow metal bearings I half filled a jamjar with ep 90 and placed a handful of brass bronze oilite and other bushes,this was between 30 and 40 years ago,the jamjar has moved house with me several times and has been on a shelf in my garage and been shaken ocasionaly,the bushes seem as good now as when they were put in but the tin jam jar lid is now quite rusty and the oil smells terrible(I think it did when I put it in!)I also mixed some castrol R and some viscostatic multigrade in annother jar and this has now turned into a nasty pink jelly!phil p-j.

Hi Brian, I can assure you if EP OILS are used you will eat away the bronze bushes, both Castrol and Morrison’s will confirm this if you get in touch with them. Use a monograde 50 engine oil. The only way to drain the gearbox is to remove the end cover and clean it properly,if you try sucking it out with a syringe or other means you will still leave any gunge or other sedement in the bottom. I personally would not bother if Alfred had meant you to change the gear oil he would have fitted a drain plug. If you get a Bruce Mainsmith photo copy hand book for a postwar Shipley model it will tell you all you need to know. Best wishes Ted Robinson.

[Brian Rowe]

thank you again everyone for your terrific imput regarding lubrication of my 59 Scott. As to Ted’s info on Bruce Mainsmith’s Handbook for postwar Shipley models, can anyone direct me as to acquiring said handbook. Eventually , given enough time and patience from fellow Scott owners and enthusiasts I too will come into the light, as it were. I think it was the day before I acquired the Scott that I missed that appointment to have my head read. Kidding of course.
Brian

[rhixon]

The information in an old BruceMain-Smith book had his phone number in Surrey, England as Dorking 2255, and the distributor, Corydon Press, phone number as Southwater 731149.

This is from a 30 year old book and no I have no idea if it’s current.

[Jan Buchwald]

Main page:
https://www.brucemainsmith.com/
Scott Post war: https://www.brucemainsmith.com/framesbooks.html
Select S under photocopies, then select Scott under manufacturer:

[chstorm]

I am afraid that Bruce Main-Smith’s Instruction manual book only covers Shipley-type Postwar Scotts (1940-1952). The Birmingham model which appeared in 1956 is not covered, although there are many similarities.

Gear oil: I believe that any heavy type monograde engine oil, SA40 or 50 will be OK. I have been using Shell Dentax SAE 140 Gear oil, which is a high quality gear oil without any EP (Extreme Pressure) additives. Recommended for early Bugatti gearboxes (Types 13, 23, 30, 35, 43). It is not as heavy as you may think from the SAE denomination – gear oils have a different SAE scale. It feels similar to a SAE50 – SAE70 engine oil. It has good adhesion properties to the gears, and does not leak out easily, as long as you don’t overfill the gearbox. Just fill up to the overflow inspection hole – no more!

On my Roger Moss-tuned Scott Flying Squirrel 1936, I use Castrol R40 in the engine and in the gearbox, following Roger’s advice, and it works very well!

[malcwebb]

Brian

Nothing gets them going on a classic bike forum like questions on oil! Everybody has a different idea. For the record,I don’t like the idea of self-mix,or synthetic, on any old bike and I stick to 40 grade mono in my 1939 F.S.

If I was in your position, my main worry would be the oil pump, not being a Brum expert, I am assuming you have the Pilgrim – tricky little blighter.
I would certainly want to make sure that it is working with nothing stuck up inside. Kicking the bike over with the plugs out or even removing the thing and trying a jury-rig on a lathe would seem like a good idea. If at all practical, I would use temporary plastic delivery pipes so you can see what is being delivered to the mains.
When you are happy with it, the advice on setting up the pump for normal running, on the Roger Moss/Moss Engineering site is excellent.

I’ve been through the radiator thing as well, John Hodge’s rads are a work of art. One word of caution though, do make sure that the short bottom hose is not too rigid otherwise you can strain the outlet pipe joint.
The pipe that the club sell is fine for the long top hose but you need a more flexible arrangement for the bottom one.
Hope this helps

Malcolm Webb

[Colin Hough]

Brian,

Let me give you some comments from having to re-start my ’59 Birmingham Scott after engine re-builds. I do not guarantee this is right as I am not overly technical, but this is what I came up with after talking to a number of people.

1) Gearbox oil.

If you go right back in the Forum a couple of years, gearbox oil was discussed with many recommending modern gearbox oil (EP90 I think was advised) and others saying just use old fashioned engine oil. From my review, I went with the latter.

A late version of The Book of the Scott actually says that engine oil should be used, and states ‘thicker oil should not be used’. From this I would assume it means 1940’s type oil so would be a single grade SAE oil. Glyn Chambers sold me some SAE40 for mine, though in a discussion with Richard Duffin (the Tech Correspondent for the club) he recommends SAE50. The Book of the Scott lists Essolube30/Castrol XXL for the engine and Essolube50/Castrol XXL for the gearbox, and notes for overseas running Essolube 30/Castrol XXL is OK for 32 – 90 deg F ambient with Essolube 40/Casrol Grand Prix for higher temps.

Previously, mine had been filled with a thixotropic oil/grease on the basis that it would prevent leaks when not running and under working would become liquid. This is not recommended by anyone I have talked to (including Glyn who admits to using it 20 years ago!!!)

Re filling, the fill is at the top and needs a funnel as the oil tank is in the way. The level hole is at the front (as described in a post above). Filling should be done with the bike on the wheels so is level, not on the stand, but may not be overly critical. There is a hole at the top left with a plug – I use this to gauge how much oil is in it using a ‘dip-stick’ marked off with where the level was when originally filled. I find that I initially get some leakage of oil, but checking of the level shows that it is not a problem. I have spoken to one member at the club AGM who said that he finds the gearbox always leaks a little to start with when initially filled but settles down just below the initial fill level and is not a problem – this appears to be the same in my case as well.

Re draining – I have not had to do this as I had the gearbox overhauled by Eddie Shermer (Yowl editor), but when I had my first ’59 model in 1966 I remember having to split the case open.

I would strongly recommend changing the oil.

If you want more info, you could try emailing Eddie or Richard, both emails are in Yowl. If you want a photo of my machine or to discuss by email, then email me directly (address also in the front of Yowl).

2) Overall oiling principles

This is based on a discussion with a number of people and I would expect it will get a number of comments from real experts within the club. I may also have misunderstood what I have been told.

The ‘pumped’ (or rather metered) oil from the Pilgim pump is ‘sucked’ into the crankcase and lubricates the main bearings and crank case seals first. It then tends to get into a mist that lubricates the big ends, cylinder wall and little ends. In practice, the big ends etc need more oil that the main bearings. If using petroil, then this does not get to the main bearings, but is very good for the big ends etc. Hence the use of pertroil plus the Pilgrim gives the best oiling, but also can give a lot of smoke if over oiled.

Certainly, for the initial period I would use both (and would recommend continuing it). I use a modern synthetic motorcycle oil (actually Silkolene supplied by Glyn, different types for mixing and pumping), but my local motorcycle shop sells another brand for modern two strokes so should be easy to obtain. I used 30:1 for the initial couple of tank fills (i.e. running in) and used 50:1 thereafter.

To ensure your big end has oil at the start you can take off the doors, spray the big ends and fill the reservoirs – I assume that their main purpose was to ensure plenty of oil for the big ends at the initial start-up as it was not originally intended to use petroil (but even in 1966 I was recommended to put an ‘egg cup’ of oil per UK gallon into the petrol by Geoff Milne).

The real concern in your case is the main bearings and crank case seals and the problem is how to get oil to them at the start-up.

For my engine re-build by Roger & Richard Moss they liberally applied grease to get it started. However, you cannot assume this applies for your case.

Richard Moss recommended undoing the lines into the engine and squirting in oil. I must confess that doing this on a Brum model is problematic with the engine in the frame so I could not do it. What I did was to remove the sight glass of the Pilgrim pump and fill the two feeder bowls – it is actually surprising how little the engine sucks in from here: it took a couple of minutes to empty each side. I filled the bowls a total of four times (but I was starting without oil in the reservoirs and relying on petroil – note: from draining the reservoirs I think they hold about 15 – 18 ml each). My thoughts are that the oil is not pumped, rather the drops are sucked in along with some air. Hence I suspect that the pipes are not actually filled with oil, but rather have oil smeared over their surfaces and when bridged it is sucked in. Hence, once in equilibrium, what goes in at the pump comes out at the engine. However, for the initial start-up, I bet the oil is simply smeared over the inside of the pipes until it builds up enough for some to come out the other end.

Most people say just turn the Pilgrim pump up a long way at the beginning to start the flow and then turn it down to the required rate, but taking the cover off and filling the bowls ensures it gets the max it will take. This, of course, assumes the Pilgrim works OK as noted in another post.

Question to others: could you remove the transfer port covers and squirt oil in below the piston and get some of it onto the main bearings???

Obviously, you should loosen off the feed line to the Pilgrim pump to ensure that oil has flowed through from the oil tank and there is no air in it.

3) How I now run my machine

I have fitted a tap in the oil supply line (the tap which came with the bike was directly on the oil tank and really really difficult to re-assemble so I did away with it). This is necessary as oil will drain from the oil tank to the Pilgrim pump bowls if just left. What I do is leave the tap on after a ride for about 24 hours as then some oil drains into the bowls to ensure there is a good amount for the inital ‘suck’ when next starting.

Note: oil leaks from the connectors onto the pump could drain oil out of the supply lines.

I drain the reservoirs after each ride on the basis that the petroil is lubricating everything except the main bearings so the pump feed is an ‘extra’ and the reservoirs are not needed to give an inital oil supply to the big ends when starting. I have a reduction gear and have set the pump for ‘two spits and then a drop’ which comes out about 8 drops a minute.

In summary, I use 50:1 plus the Pilgrim and drain the reservoirs between rides.

If anyone has advice/comments it would be most appreciated.

Regards,

Colin
SOC Overseas Liaison Officer

[chstorm]

I use a 50:1 petroil mix on my bikes – R40 on the 1936 model and straight SAE 40 on the Brum. I still have 5 litres left of the old-fashioned Silkolene SAE 40 2-stroke oil. A modern synthetic 2-stroke oil gives less smoke, but it has not got the same adhesion properties as a straight SAE 40 oil or indeed a R40, and lubricated surfaces may, according to more knowledgeable persons than me, end up a bit on the dry side when the engine is working hard. On the Pilgrim I use 4 spits and a drop (Roger Moss actually recommended 6 spits and a drop when using petroil). 2 spits and a drop seems excessive. You need some oil from the Pilgrim to keep the crankcase seals moist, but not much. The same goes for the main bearings. Excessive oiling may easily lead to other problems.

[Author]

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