To Pilgrim or Petroil?

[John E. Smith]

I have now just about finished the full rebuild of my 1947 Flyer, where I have converted the crankcase seals to modern lip seals and disposed of the original gland seals.
The big idea was to block the oil feed pipes and run on petroil.
Well, I have to confess to last minute cold feet, and wonder if I should perhaps try belt and braces by opening up the oil pipes and fitting non-return valves to stop backflow from crankcase pressure.
Has this been done before? And if so, was it a success?
I don’t want to re-invent the wheel, so does anyone have a design for a non-return valve to go in the feed pipe?
Help!!!!!!!!!!!!
Cheers, John

[dave bushell]

John
If you blank off the oil feed completely, you wont have any oil lubricating the main bearings! Petroil will not do that.
Dave

[Jan Buchwald]

Hello John
I converted mine last summer (according the discribtion in “Technicalities”) and run it without any non-return valve.
Crankcase pressure doesn’t seem to be a problem as it consumes a normal amount of oil.
I run on “Agib Speed” two stroke oil, and add 1% oil in the petrol, as the oilpump is adjusted to “next to nothing”, braces and belt like you say, (I think it was build to handle thicker oil).
I wonder if the bronce spacer acts as some kind of non-return valve.
Best wishes
Jan Buchwald

[Roger Moss]

There are more preferences for these subjects than there are fleas on a hedgehog, but these are my personal opinions and they have worked well for me.
I find the Scott cup and gland system perfectly ok if the lube is reliable.
The pilgrim is a bit marginal but OK if monitored and I recommend petroil for efficiency and safety.
The petroil on its own will not lube the main bearings and keep the seal wet. A dry seal will not least long.
If you are using a bronze washer for end float, then be sure there is room for the oil to find its way from the oil hole in the cup to the main bearings.
I use the same non return valves as George Silk used. They work, so why change?
If you use 1/8 BSP modern oil unions with clear plastic pipe you can see what is happenning to the oil. If you use a single feed pump like a Best and Lloyd or a Silk pump based on the B&L then you could have problems if one side pulls more strongly than the other. As a pump, the B&L is much better than the Pilgrim, but I am sure Scott soon stopped using them because of the difficulty in balancing the feed.
So, in short, if you have fitted synthetic seals, you MUST have a feed to the mains and seals. I use a simple dripper for this and petroil. Of course the best answer is just a better twin pump and with throttle controlled output. The Japs have done this with their usual efficiency and several folks have adapted them to Scotts. Then you do not need petroil.
We can do this if asked, but as nobody asks and we are busy, then we don’t shout about it.
Kind Regards
Roger

[Erik]

@Roger Moss wrote:

The Japs have done this with their usual efficiency and several folks have adapted them to Scotts. Then you do not need petroil.
We can do this if asked, but as nobody asks and we are busy, then we don’t shout about it.
Kind Regards
Roger

I’m one of hose people and the system works nicely. Modern throttle controlled pump in combination with modern seals and bronze washers. And Moss non return valves. I do use some oil in the petrol but I think that is mainly for my own relief than that the Scott needs it….

Erik

[John E. Smith]

Thanks very much to all those members who kindly responded to my plea!
I did consider a throttle controlled pump as done by Erik (and no doubt others) but I have one of those coil ignition models which don’t really lend themselves to such a mod without very major surgery.
Clearly, I have to provide an oil system to protect the main bearings and the seals, so I shall go for non-return valves in the two feed pipes. But is it possible to set up the Pilgrim (ex. plungers) to act as a “dripper”? (Oil could then be drawn into the crankcase via the nrv’s by crankcase depression on the suction stroke.)
Alternatively, should I replace the pump plungers and revert to the original system?
I was reluctant to go down this path if petroil is adequate simply because I was horrified to see the poor old pilgrim shuffling those little plungers back and forth at crankshaft speeds!
I felt that to avoid over-oiling, the plunger stroke would need to be so short as to encourage an air bubble to sit in the pump and go nowhere, but clearly this is not the case.
Has anyone used the pump as a dripper?
Sorry to be a pain, but I do need to get this right!
Happy New Year All!
John

[Jan Buchwald]

You are no pain, quistions makes people think

[Roy Fisher]

I’ve been following this correspondence with interest as I’ve recently bought a Birmingham Scott that has been equipped with drippers only, the Pilgrim Pump & Distributor having been removed to enable a twin contact breaker ignition system to be fitted. There are no one way valves either but (I assume) it has the original glands fitted with timed oil holes that allow crankcase suction to draw oil into the mains. These mods appear to have been done years ago and the engine seems fine. I don’t think the previous owner even used petroil and just set the drippers according to the exhaust smoke. I intend to leave it as it is for the time being but will definitely be using petroil. Time will tell if my assumptions are correct!

Roy Fisher

[Martin Heckscher]

Some years ago, when I bought my TT Rep, it was fitted with a Pilgrim converted to function as drippers and I found it unsatisfactory in almost every respect.

The rate of drip bore no relation to engine speed (of course) and even a brief stop at a red traffic light would result in clouds of smoke.

I found it impossible to set a reliable drip (!). Having set it, I would stop after a few miles to check that all was well, and it rarely was. Sometimes oil would be flooding through, at other times oil flow had virtually stopped. This was regardless of whether it had been set up with the engine hot or cold. It seemed to me to be totally inconsistent and I stripped it down twice because I was sure their must be a blockage of some sort, but found no obvious fault.

I’ve never had a problem with the Pilgrim on a reduction gear fitted to my other Scott, and was about to fit the same system to the Rep when it was involved in an accident nearly two years ago. One thing is sure – when it is finally back on the road, the lubrication will not be via a Pilgim converted to drip!

I know that others find the dripper Pilgim to be just fine – but that was my experience for what it’s worth.

[Jon Hodges]

Dear John

If you have a few hours to spare but would like to see other people’s attempts at improving the Scott oiling system visit the website http://www.scotttechnicalities.com.au. that Steve Enticott has recently put up. There is a whole section on oiling including converting a pilgrim pump to a drip system.

Don’t get too distracted by everything else that you can find in there, it can be addictive!

Good luck

Jon Hodges

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