How about This?

[EJP]

Guys,
I have read the latest post post AGM and pre AGM. To me the answer is obviose. Proposasals for the AGM are sent to the Secretary as normal but are put on the website at the same time. The website is moderated so we can control it. Let suggest that all members register thier votes online with a proposal that all e votes are verified by the moderators and are therefore valid.
Surely no one can complain at that? Isnt that democracy?
Ted parkin
ex Editor “Yowl”
PS Can we assume that annoymous posts are now a thing of the past?
Arent we all grown up?

[Stan Thomas]

Hi Ted,

Great Theory – but impacticable to operate.

Any form of proxy voting requires two essentials, namely;

1) A fixed proposition.

2) A wholly democratic and universal medium.

Let me explain. If there is a fixed proposition, a proxy vote is fine, but any deviation due to any form of ammendment to the proposition at the A.G.M cannot be responded to by a proxy vote.

An example is – should we vote for Jones, Smith or Green for Chairman? Such a proposition could be responded to by a proxy vote.

However if the proposition was (say) that “Yowl” should have a green cover, but by deliberation at the A.G.M it was altered to a green cover with a gold border, then the proxy votes are nul and void. Silly example, but I hope you get the drift.

Proxy voting also has two other drawbacks. First it is slow and laborious, and secondly, the amount of response you would get from the overall membership would probably be very small.

The main objection to proxy voting however is that it is open to pressurised canvasing – i.e. someone phoning around to get support by ilicit claims.

Any form of proxy voting would have to be in “Yowl”, not on the website, which currently does not attract more than about 10% of the membership.

Overall, I think we should stay with the maxim of “Those who are sufficiently interested in the Club are those who attend the A.G.M. – so let them decide it’s well being.

Regards,

Stan Thomas.

[grey fox]

For once Ted I agree with you,must be a first…….

[Rod Norris]

Stan,
You have shown a very logical set of reasons where there are problems with proxy voting. But there are several ways that you can have proxy voting. You can give permission for someone to vote on your behalf as happens at shareholders meetings on all issues or just specific ones.
Something needs to be done so that the membership from abroad does not feel excluded. Something that includes those who cannot make it on that one day due to a funeral or wedding etc.
Generally, those who are interested will find the will to attend, but our membership is spread far and wide and the cost and desire to travel from abroad is prohibitive.
So it may come to pass that on occasions that proxy votes fall due to an ammendment. Then so be it. But on other occasions, there could be a straight vote, as it was for the vote for the chairman, this year. We must create a situation where all members can feel a part of the democratic process of their own club.
There will always be those who will abuse a system & unfortunately. there will always be those who resort to dishonest whispering campaigns. I blame those that listen to them. There is no perfect voting system, we all have to do our best to ensure that everyone has an equal say.
Rod

[Steven Enticott]

Just add my two bobs worth..

Stan I am sufficiently interested in the future of the club and would like to have my vote on the more “important” club issues. But I am in Australia, and like many other abroad members simply cannot travel to club meetings. Its a global village now and quite possibly (likely) twenty years from now and as Ted’s finall editorial of Yowl attested to the club will exist as a “cyber club”… Let overseas members have there say too…!

Thanks Rod for your sentiments.

Steven Enticott

[al perry]

hi stan;
the choice is simple, democratic means ALL members have a chance to vote, anything else is NOT democratic, or fair, the club officers are supposed to represent the membership, that (should have democraticly) elected them, the fact that we are having this converstation shows that that does not seem to be happening, absentee ballots work for others, and will work for us as well, perhaps the club officials should be enpowered to make certain decisions for the good of the club, BUT they should be
elected to that position, by a democratic majority, if they fail to perform,
they can be voted out, but again ALL members must have a chance to vote! irrespective of their proxcimity to the local of the agm,

how would you like it if the next vote was at my house?? would you see it as fair? why not???

[grey fox]

Yes good idea,why should overseas members not have a say…..

[Rod Norris]

Al,
Glad to see we are having a meeting at youre place. I’m just going to book the flight. I presume you can put us up for the fortnight 😆

Only joking Al.

Your point is well made & one I heartily agree with.

[Stan Thomas]

Right then lads…………..

If you want proxy voting (and I agree in principle but point out the difficulties) then let us begin.

lets now draft a proposition , which, with a seconder, can be put to the A.G.M. next year. It will of course require sanction before proxy voting can begin, and an amendment to the Club Rules accordingly.

Theoretically, all members with wives and partners can have a “proxy vote” in store, given the Club Rules say wives and partners of members have voting rights.

I suggest you begin by lobbying for the Club Rules to be available on the website. Study them, and act accordingly.

I will draft what I feel is a proposition for proxy voting, given the tide of feeling toward such a requirement.

Stan Thomas.

[Rod Norris]

Nice one Stan, you’re a credit to the club.

I did presume, you were just pointing out the pitfalls rather than speaking out against the principle. When I look at these issues, like you, I look for the pitfalls which can sometimes be misinterpreted. It is the only way to put together a cohesive policy.

I was going to mention it at the AGM after reading the e-mails on here the night before. However, the length of the meeting, was already more than most could put up with. Another resolution would have pushed the patience of even the most hardy.

[Graham Parker]

Stan – I agree and think you should progress this.

I also, think we should look into the possibility of trying a webcast and taking votes interactively via the web during the AGM. That way, remote members could vote even on amended proposals.

I realise, that for some, this might take some accepting – but it’s no big deal and would be a great, and secure, way to go. It would still mean the guys in the US getting out of bed early and the guys in Oz not going to bed at all – but it would give them and others unable to physical attend, the option to participate.

I suggest you continue with your route, and that we give this web route some thought in parallel, with a view to at least doing a “trial” at the next AGM.

What do others think?

G

[Rod Norris]

Graham,
I think it is a good idea. However, the membership including a lot of the officers are not particularly au fait with computers and internet technology. Whilst I think your idea should be investigated, it might be seen as:
1 Taking the outcome of the vote for “proxy voting” for granted
2 A step too far too soon for those same people

I suspect it would have to be done on a closed section of the site only open to members. Otherwise how would we know who was voting.

I’m not trying to dismiss the idea but as I said previously I tend to look for problems in advance as it equips us better to answer those who disagree.

[jerry hillman]

Just caught the tail end of this discussion. What about adopting the middle ground, and sending all the details of nominations for the committee plus one proforma voting slip by post to each member at the relevent time, say 1-2 months in advance of the AGM (allows time for our overseas colleagues to receive and send). It needn’t cost much, postage could be covered by sending the forms in with Yowl, and this way each member has an equal say, without necessarily having computer skills or access. An independent vote counting system could be considered, to counter any allegations of unfairness/vote rigging.
What do you think, ladies and gents?
Jerry Hillman (not quite so angry young man)

[Stan Thomas]

Thanks Rod for those few kind words.

Although I have been criticised for being “outspoken” I have always strived (dare I say struggled?) to always do and say what I think is best to make for an active and vibrant Club, being the first to concede when my suggestions are overshadowed by a better or alternative idea. (Which ain’t too difficult!).

So, herewith the “bones” of the proposition regarding proxy voting which I offer for deliberation:

“Members may submit propositions to the Editor no later than the 31st of January for inclusion in the February edition of Yowl in respect of the forthccoming A.G.M. requesting proxy votes in support. Such propositions must be supported by a seconder, and be such that they will not or cannot require ammendment at the A.G.M. Proxy votes must be made in writing to the Secretary, or displayed on the website for downloading for recording purposes”

Try that lads for starters.

Stan Thommas.

[Paul W]

Stan (and others),

I’ve just created a new forum category called ‘Members’ Area’ which you may find useful to discuss such Club specific matters. It’s only accessible to Club Members who will need to either email me (webmaster@scottownersclub.org) with their membership number to be granted access, or by requesting access via the ‘Usergroups’ button which appears at the top right hand side of the screen. I’m not proposing that the Members’ Area be used for all correspondence, instead it would be just for items such as the consitution or other private club matters which may be of no interest to ‘public’ non-members but would be able to be kept on record. Please note that i’m not proposing to limit access to the other existing forum categories which will continue to be ‘publicly’ viewable.

Feel free to give it a try and we’ll see if it’s of any use ?!

Best Regards,

Paul Wilson
socwebmaster@scottownersclub.org

[Author]

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