Technicalities on CD ROM

[Roger Moss]

Some time ago we discussed this matter at an AGM. We must recognise that such an item would only be of use to those progressive members who both have and are able to use a computer. I will post a separate subject regarding this subject and welcome all input.
Back to the CD
Steve Bowles offered to do this job. At this time Steve’s fortunes were favourable, in that within reason, he was not short of cash or time.
First he found that the printed “Technicalities would not scan, as the photos were mostly black.
What to do? He bought (With his own money) a full set of Yowls, so as to copy to CD. The idea being, that as the Technicalities were extracts from Yowl, then it is possible to put all Yowls on CD and then index the subjects.
Steve has spent about 120 hours putting the years 1963 to 1973 on CD.
His TT Replica languishes awaiting restoration while he laboured on this for us.
Life has a few unexpected twists and turns and in Steve’s case, the twists involved working much longer hours for less cash. (I know how this feels!) Jon Hodges sent Steve a copy of the Morgan club equivalent. Steve saw this and compared with our low budget project, he felt a little deflated.
At the recent AGM, it was suggested that Paul Wilson take this over, as he “knew all about computers”
Paul has done us all proud with this website and has a right to have a life.
If our senior members suggest that our club should be about riding our Scotts, then it is a contradiction to expect that others should give up their opportunity to do so by taking on such a large and thankless task.
What to do. Well the Rudge and Morgan clubs paid to get it done professionally. By contrast, we have pursued a policy of minimal subscriptions and minimal expenditure. You get what you pay for. You pay little, you get little! My judgement is that we should pay a little more and drastically upgrade our service to members in areas such as the CD ROM for Yowl, Technicalities, Photos of models to aid definition of originality, possible even technical drawings, as the Rudge club.
We are privileged to own and run what must be a pre eminent marque, but compared with other clubs, we are like paupers.
I have suggested to Steve Bowles and Paul Wilson, that we decide what we want and find out who did the jobs for the Rudge and Morgan clubs. We should then get the job quoted properly and see if we have enough in the coffers to afford it.
Here we come to the real problem. From memory, I think that there are about 70 users of this message board. There are about 700 members!
That means that 630 members will see no advantage for them.
I am quite aware that “Time marches on!” and that all new members can be expected to be computer literate. If the decisions are to be made in the name of the majority, then we have a problem. I am in name, now a member of the management committee. I will not say that if you mention the word “Computer” then crucifix’s are raised in defence, but our AGM agenda is typed on a vintage typewriter, if you follow my drift.
The only other none cost solution is to see if a number of members will individually do say a year of Yowl and then compile the whole later. This would need a meeting to lay out the common objective and harmonise approach.
I will post a subject about helping our senior members to understand what they could gain from embracing a computer. The more are converted, the better chance we will have. I will do that later as it is late and like Steve Bowles, I have to work a lot of hours to keep afloat.
Finally, I would like to invite you to join me in publicly thank Steve Bowles for the many lonely hours he has spent on our behalf. It was unreasonable to expect one man to do this, but I think that few realised the enormity if the task
If you agree with any of the above, or have suggestions, I would appreciate your input, as subsequent negotiations with the long standing members of the management committee might be uphill.
Kindest regards to all
Roger Moss

[neil levings]

Thanks Roger …and particaular thanks to Steve Bowles for all his hard work and unsung effort.

Yes we must enbrace new technology..and harness it for the good of all.

We all know that a soon as we buy a Scott the search is on for technicalities- it is the bible of scotts – and I know even seasoned Scott restorers who need to refer to it!

How about this then as a suggestion….

The scanning idea is a good one and potentailly the only really viable way to repro Technicalities…but we need access to a commercial scanner which will repro exactly what it “sees” without any blacking out etc- indeed even poor originals can be enhanced if necessary.

This is the ideal solution – as then the scanned material can be put onto CD or printed off for those without a PC…or who prefer a workshop style printed version.

How to fund this??

Well unless I read the accounts wrongly there does appear to be cash in the bank which could fund this essential expenditure.

If you or ANO will let me know how many pages of A4 are involved I will obtain quotes from say 2/3 local asrtwork studios and submit them to t’ committee for consideration/approval.

I am willing to project manage this process – but only if there is the goodwill of the club and the support of the Management Team to do it.

I do not want to find myself being barracked etc…as can sadly happen in this Club!!!!!

What do u /all think?

Let me know

01789 550621

PS of course if anyone has access to a professional scanner then 😆 😆 I will bow out!!!

N

[Colin West]

I think that having technicalities as a pdf (Adobe portable document format) file on cd is a good move, as, for those without a pc it could easily be printed…… but, may I add something quite important to the equation.

To keep away from technobabble, if you simply take the paper based document and scan the pages as they are into new electronic document, then you are simply creating an electronic photocpy.

If one was to scan and optically recognise the characters and then create a new text document, re incorporate the scanned images into that text documents, and then distill it as a pdf document you would have the search facilities built into Adobe Acrobat. For example you could search on the word ‘pilgrim’ and then be taken to all mentions of that word until you found one that gve you the info you required – really handy eh!

I frequently scan into a pdf manuals so that I can preserve the originals – For the sake of speed and simplicity I usually scan as a graphical image and thefore the new document is not searchable, it is useful none the less.

This however is a large task as it basically means re creating technicaliteis as a singe new document.

So, if it worth doing it is worth doing properly, perhaps funded by a single surcharge on next years subscripton as an extraordinary cost.

Colin

[Roger Moss]

If we want something done, it will not do it itself so we must discuss and agree the most viable method, have it costed and present it.
It seems that the majority of the management comittee do not have computors, so understandably perhaps, do not see the need for such developments. I, however, am concerned for new members and the future, so want tp progress this now I am officially on the management committee.
I give my word that I will not stand any ill treatment of anyone involved.
I am a peaceable man, but will not stand by and see those who try and help abused for their pains.
Perhaps when we have collected a good few suggestions and whatever costings and relevant info we can get, then we should have a meeting to agree the best option and how it should be implemented.
If I present it on your behalf to the rest of the Management committee, then it should go through.
Ted Parkin put in a resolution at this years AGM that the club fund Technicalities on CD ROM. To be honest, this years AGM was a bit chaotic and we still have not received official minutes of the meeting. I can not personally remember this item. If Ted says it was lodged, then it was so.
Does anyone who was there remember it?
Kind Regards
Roger

[BRIAN MARSHALL]

No-one discussing this topic so far seems to have remembered that at the AGM it was pointed out that we should be aiming to produce it in DVD form rather than CD-ROM form because it can then be used by non-computer literate members via a DVD player and their TV set. DVD players can now be purchased for as little as £50. To get things into perspective less than 10% of the membership are currently using this website, and this very low usage demonstrates that many members are totally disinterested in computers despite being keen Scott enthusiasts. They must not be sidelined or allowed to become second-class members. Regards. Brian Marshall

[neil levings]

Hi Brian

Good idea about the DVD read only disc.

Please note though that in these discussions care is being taken to embrace the full membership – with a PC or not ..with a DVD or not …as the output in whatever format would be printable – and hence hard copies would be available to all who required/requested.

The details of this end production process do need discusion and agreement in detail – that is who prints off /posts out etc …..but this seems to be a simple task compared with the production of the initial CD /data – in whatever format.

If one of you will let me know the number of A4 pages of text /pics/diagrams then I am willing to obtain a few quotes so at least we know what cost might be involved – if that is helpful and wanted. If this has already been done – then sorry!! I will belt up!!!!!

Cheers

Neil Levings

[Roger Moss]

Brian. Quite correct and thanks for reminding me. In truth, we are interested in preparing and recording the info and can present in whatever formats are most acceptable.
Neil. Your willingness to help is much appreciated. I will get the info and the initial disc and report back.
Brian. We certainly do not want to sideline the majority of members. However, when you consider how easy it is to communicate with this “Window on the World”, I can not help feeling that it could be a great boon to elderly members. You have conversation in your own home with members who share the same interests. Older members have a wealth of experience they could share with younger members.
I am intending to write a piece for Yowl about the positive aspects of the internet and how you start. It would be great if a member who is not knowledgeable about computors could receive a little assistance from a local member who was so knowledgeable. A bit of a pipe dream perhaps, but one way goes computor knowledge and in the process, so much traditional Scott lore could be passed on.

[Colin West]

Hi,

Picking up on Brain Marshall’s point of having Technicalities on DVD for use on a domestic DVD player I think that it is virtually impossible and impractical to have the documents prepared for use on both a PC and a DVD player.

I would add to this that most times I view an electronic document for a bike I print off the page(s) and take them to the machine. Not easily possible with a domestic DVD player. If Technicalites were to be electronic they will virtually have to be in adobe pdf format (for pc) and therefore readable using the free to download adobe acrobat reader

To back pedal a little, with 700 members, and only 70 registered on the website, is there a demand for electronic technicalities? (I would like a set, but I am a new and novice member with access to PCs in the home and office and not representative of the whole membership)

If the cost is high and the demand is low then it is not the best use of our funds and we could stick to good old paper.

IF there were technicalities on electronic media, could this be sold to members at a reasonable cost and used to encourage non-members to join. Selling club items to non-members is illogical and does nothing to continue the clubs existence. In fact allowing non-members access to the forum is questionable for the same reasons.

Colin

[Jan Buchwald]

Just because no more then 71, at this moment, have joined this web, doesn’t mean that they are without access to a pc, and, printing a hard copy is easy from a CD.
You don’t have to be on the net to read a CD.
If you are without pc, you can ask one who has to print out the parts you need.
How about an inquiry in, why people (newcomers) joined the club, it can’t be the social gatherings that makes people from all ower the world join.
I say it is historic and technical knowledge they seek.

[David Sheppard]

Hi All,
I’ve followed the various discussions regarding this topic on the bulletin board with interest over the last few months and would be very interested in acquiring Technicalities in an electronic format, be it DVD or CD.

Being new to Scotts and having recently started the restoration of a ’29 Flyer basket case I was clearly (and still am!) in need of as much technical info. as possible.

I have, however, recently gone down a more basic route to acquire a hard copy myself and share my solution with you for what it’s worth and for any possible comments.

I was recently fortunate enough to be able to borrow an original set of Technicalities (thanks David!) and being a simple soul I merely photocopied it (doing a second copy for another member of the Eastern Section at the same time).

This was not a quick job! Even using a modern fairly high capacity digital copier with sheet feed and double sided copying facilities it is fair to say that it took several hours to complete. Certainly some (but it really wasn’t that many) of the photographs were not reproduced well enough to be of much use.

However, since completing this photocopying exercise I have spoken to a printer I use in my professional life and they have quoted the sum of £483.00 plus VAT to produce 10 photocopied sets. For this price they would produce Technicalities on A4 paper and each set would be “drilled” to enable it’s insertion in a lever arch file etc. (The latter is not included in the cost).

You don’t need to be Einstein to work out that this equates to £56.75 per copy inc. VAT for a not-quite-perfect version and carriage costs would also be on top of this.

Please do bear in mind, however, that I have not approached any other printers to get competitive quotes.

On the face of it, this is clearly quite an expensive way forward but I felt that some members may appreciate an alternate quick solution whilst the electronic option is explored in greater detail.

If sufficient members were interested at this sort of cost I could be persuaded to facilitate this exercise providing I’m not stepping on any offical club toes! If I am – I guess I’ll be told soon enough!

If this process was to proceed I would also need the loan of the best possible original set as the set I borrowed had a couple of pages missing.

Regards to all,

[Shaun Matthews]

Sorry in advance if I offend but the point of this exercise should be to capture the knowledge that the older members of the club have accumulatd over the years. – Its the new and prospective members who primaraly need access to the info – they are the ones restoring, recommissioning, blowing bikes up and generally depleting the spares stock through use coupled with lack of expertise, the old salts have the skills, the sorted machiney and yet , increasingly use the bikes less and less as time marches on.

So what if only 10% have access to the electronic version, next year it will be 20%, then 30 and this will continue to increase as the membership naturaly churns. To not do this because the majority neither have a need for, or access to the information is folly – If one of the club’s aims is to preserve these fine machines and keep them on the road then its a no brainer – we must do it – the only question should be how.

This debate runs the risk of getting as stupid as the VMCC’s recent policy of not advertising gatherings to ‘stop the modern bikes and hangers on spoiling things’. – The only way to preserve the marque (and all the other old bikes) is to get them used and cared for by a new band of enthusiasts. This can be helped no end by publishing the knowledge rather than petty squabbles about the club constitution and voting mechanics.

I use the old bikes at every opportunity taking them to modern motorcycle gatherings and thrash them mercilessly round the North Welsh roads, regularly surprising riders of japaneses crotch rockets, more often than not they are interestd by the bikes but openly admit that they won’t own one because of perceived frailty, lack of knowledge and fear of the unknown.

I would offer to do it but my lame appology is that with comitments to my job, family and bikes I just don’t have the time to support the club more, I will do in a few years time, as will many others who write in this message board, all I ask in the meanwhile is please put it in good order for us.

[Roger Moss]

What we need is to help ourselves in whatever way we can.
I do not have the best memory in the world and so had a useful reminder from my good friend, Gill Swann.
Gill reminded me that a motion was put to the 2004 AGM and passed to the effect that the club would fund the Technicalities on CD ROM.
Great! I did not see any mention as to whether this was to defray the costs of a volunteer, or a commercial cost, so it can be either.
It seems that in this case, we only need to decide what is technically the best solution and get quotes. The job is up to us to arrange and Please, Please, Please, remember, that I welcome absolutely all and any suggestions and help.
I was born 100% ignorant and it is my fervent desire to die not more than 99.5% ignorant! I try to learn a little every day and if anyone can give me new information, or logically show me where I have been wrong, then I will be eternally thankful to that person.
So there you are! A bottomless pit of ignorance to be filled!
Very Kindest Regards
Roger

[Martin Heckscher]

Since I have an original hard copy of Technicalities I’m not really in the market for the same again on CD. But I absolutely ackowledge that the information will be extremely useful to anyone new to Scotts.

However, the difficulty of scanning the photos in Technicalities has been raised. In fact most of these photos are of such poor quality that their relevance is doubtful. If decent reproduction of these piictures is the problem, then I simply wouldn’t bother with them. The usefulness of Technicalities does not lie with the photographs.

Of course Technicalities deals with technical articles as the title suggests. I seem to remember at least one posting suggesting that other topics would be interesting. Now, if the membership really wanted to go the whole hog, though it would be a massive undertaking, how about making all back issues of the Yowl available electronically? Properly indexed, that would be a massive source of reference. But in this event decent photographic reproduction would be a must as there are some wonderful old photographs in the old Yowls. The quality isn’t always there but it’s inevitably better than in Technicalities which, I think, was simply photocopied from the relevant Yowl.

Best wishes to all
Martin Heckscher

[Rod Norris]

When this was first mentioned, I offered my services along with others to carry on the excellent work carried out so far. It seems we have a nucleus of good intention with which we could carry out some work on a trial basis.
I have a few CD Roms of manuals for different bikes. On one CD I have the Triumph Manuals collection for different eras. Another I have BMW and one for my modern Hayabusa. They prove very useful. I can print the whole lot out and put them in plastic sleeves that can then go in a ring binder or just print the relevant pages and toddle off to the garage and do my work wothout fear of being left with an oily unreadable manual.
The PDF CD is very useful in that you can search for words or view the contents section and go straight to the information. I have scanned some pages from Yowl and the scanner picks up the print from the other side of the page. When Colin mentioned then converting to text rather than the picture image which the text is at this stage, the background rubbish would disappear upon conversion. My scanner fetches the pictures out OK. If not, are the originals pictures available. Surely for this project, the technical drawings and technical pictures are most relevant rather than a picture of my Grandad on his Scott 50 years ago. The point being that the technical stuff can be scanned from other sources of better quality if necessary
Like most of you I don’t have a lot of spare time, but if others are willing to participate then between us we should be able to compile a few years of info and test out the results before moving on. The existing info that a member has already worked on could be presumably updated in to the same format. The OCR (optical character recognition) software has improved considerably over the last few years and modern computers can cope admirably with the volume of information needed to be processed.
If we all devoted just 2 hours a week each, then I’m certain this could be started.
I used to teach people to use computers and age is not a barrier. Younger people are surrounded by the technology at work but I have come across many gifted people of all ages. Having fond memories of the past and liking history should not preclude you from partaking in progress and most people accept this.
We must however, take all necessary steps to ensure that those without computers are not made to feel left out.
I hope to be of help in this excellent project.

[Jon Hodges]

As the original proposer of getting agreement for the production of Yowls on to CD rom I must correct Roger’s statement that this was passed in 2004. In fact it was at the AGM in 2002 that it was agreed the Club would fund and support Steve Bowles in this project. At the AGM I spoke about Steve’s efforts and the reasons for the need to copy all the Yowls rather than just reproduce the Technicalities electronically. (See AGM Report in August 2002 Yowl, page 401)

Perhaps not everyone is aware that the ‘Technicalities’ are purely a reprint of any technical articles that have appeared in Yowl over the years. We owe a great debt to Bill Jamieson, an Australian Section member, for the amount of time that he must have devoted to compiling the Technicalities, not forgetting Glyn Chambers who continued with the updates. However, there are a lot of snippets of information contained within other articles or letters which are missing in the Technicalities. This, together with the fact that the Yowls represent the history of the Club, is the reason that both Steve and I felt that the opportunity should be taken to make the past issues of Yowl available to all Club members if they so required.

Steve has already produced a CD rom, in PDF format which is fully searchable, covering the first 10 years from 1963 and as far as I am aware there is no reason why this could not be made available. It would benefit from some artwork for the cover and case notes, with instructions, to turn it into a quality product befitting the Club. I have not had the time to sit and browse through all of it but from the brief delvings that I have made it is a fascinating archive.

It is very unfortunate that Steve’s other commitments have bought a halt to his valuable efforts but I for one would like to thank him for what he has achieved so far. However, from this foundation we now need to complete the task one way or another. Too much time has already passed without the supply of the hard copy Technicalities being available. Both newcomers and old hands alike have benefitted from this important source of information but this could be built on with all the Yowls being made available in a searchable format.

Personally I feel that the task should be carried out professionally but this is obviously dependent upon the likely cost involved. Doing a quick sum on the number of Yowls from 1973 to 2003 there are 180 issues with 30+ pages each which would mean approximately 6,000 pages to scan. The cost therefore comes down to the time involved in scanning this number of pages. Does anyone know anyone who is in this line of business that could put a price on the job?

If the Club could be persuaded to fund the operation the money could be recouped over a period by selling both the CD roms and hard copy versions that could easily be produced from the CDs.

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