Technicalities on CD ROM

[Deleted User]

Hi All

this is a very interesting debate …but I am still willing to progress this project forwards …yes a man of action …not just words!!!

Mmm thinking about Yowl – tha printed would have had to scan in all the text at some stage of the production process- so I will speak to them as a first port of call.

Unless there is a veto put on me I will also get a quote(s) from a commercial firm to scan technicalities – and return within say 2/3 weeks to this Forum/Roger with prices.

Cheers

Neil

PS Once we have the Master CD it can be updated quite easily…..just like any item of Software ie V1/V2 etc

[Deleted User]

Hi All you Scotters interested in Technicalities…..

I have now obtained a reasonably up to date copy of T’s.

For those who are waiting for a copy I HAVE A QUICK FIX SOLUTION!!!!!

I can have 15 top quality hard copies made at a cost of £25 each plus p&p.

I had “mine” neatly spiral bound as 3 volumes – with a clear perspex cover – and hard back for an extra £6.

I am still pursuing the Scanning/CD route – but this seems to me a good low cost short term solution.

I can have the copies made and ask Gill Swan to “sell” them via the Spares Scheme – if there is a demand.

What does this Forum think?

Incidentally the Book of the Scott is included in the copies.

I have already found my copy useful and very interesting – but over to the Club for a response!!

Will respond with the CD cost in due course.

Cheers

Neil Levings

[Deleted User]

Neil,
Thanks for making the enquiries. I want a copy and will pay up front if required.

[Deleted User]

Neil,
Thanks for making the enquiries. I want a copy and will pay up front if required.

[lewis onions]

neil,

Please put me down for a copy. I am prepared to pay up front too!

Regards

[Deleted User]

Neil,
I would like one as well. Useing the scheme to pay would be easier, but
I will do which ever way works.
Mark

[Deleted User]

Hi all
Martin Brockwell had a set done. It cost him £80 and the shop owner told him not to come back for more!
As regards progress, I am awaiting answers to questions that have been posed by those more conversant with transferring info onto CD ROM than I am. I also admit that due to spending long hours trying to make a living, then sometimes things are not responded to as quickly as I would like. I mean well, so beg your forgiveness if I fail at times.
I think it is absolutely great to see so many positive people who all want to go forward with making technical info available.
Whatever I have as regards info and designs is available, but I am only slowly getting it on to CAD.
Kind Regards
Roger Moss

[Deleted User]

Hi All

Technicalities on to CD…..the saga continues…but with positive news….

I have now obtained 3 quotes – and quite a few ” u must be joking mate”!!
responses.

Anyway the best (in terms of time and willingness) and the cheapest quote is £850 to scan plus upto £50 to Burn off 20 CDs ( the amount of memory might need 2 CDs).

This is a local reliable studio/printer here in Stratford on Avon.

The work would take about 4 weeks – with the info being saved in jpeg format.

I did ask about Acrobat formatting but this is really a lot more complex and potentially up to 3x the jpeg cost – simply because of time to name each page – also the memory used is significantly more – sorry u teccys but I go all glassy eyed when the jargon goes beyond the basics!!

Anyway if my Maths are right this works out at £45 plus VAT per CD or 20 off – but obviously the price cascades downwards the more copies are burned off.ie 40 CDs would cost £22.50 plus VAT and so on….

The Club might decide to add aprofit margin – I am not sure how this works.

If the club decides to go ahead I am happy to project manage the production.

I suggest that the spares scheme is the access route – but this needs to be agreed with Gill Swan.

If we can decide pronto then we should be OK for sales at the Sept Gathering.

Just give me the word and I will pounce into action like an Olympic Judo competitor and pin this project to the floor!!!!!!!!!!

Of course the photocopy route is also available as a stand alone solution – or in tandem with the CD.

Over to u guys!!!

Cheers

Neil Levings

PS am moving house next week – and so may not be contactable via the web for a few days – say 13-18th July

Call my mobile 07769834040 or new land line 01789 298440 from 13th.

[Deleted User]

Just some thoughts here gained in the light of my experience doing what must now be thought of as a pilot for this project. The ideas that have been put forward already are all good and I cheer the enthusiasm with which, in general, appears to exist.
These are my opinions.

The product should be a complete set of Yowls and not just Technicalities. My reasoning is that, for the amount of extra work required, it would be far better to have access to everything available rather than just the technical issues thought by the compiler/s to be useful. A complete history has to be better than an abridged version.

The format for this project should be Adobe .pdf. It gives us the best of both worlds in so much as the representation of the original Yowl article can be displayed/printed as it was in the original and also fully searchable for text. This is achieved during the scanning process, and is one of the reasons it takes so long, by creating a text file that sits behind the scenes out of site and when searched highlights the appropriate page and word in the original Yowl format. There is also the question of free viewing software that is a bonus and also the fact that everyone else who has done this in the past has elected to use Adobe, which has to be a good sign.

It would be almost impossible to farm out this work to a number of different people to produce a part each as the differences in scanning equipment and the various settings used in the software need to remain constant in order to produce a finished item that looked and behaved consistently.

The costs are interesting. I am sure that the graft that goes into actually scanning and then indexing and then formatting the page numbers is going to be expensive and I suggest we ask the Morgan OC who did theirs (as we have proof that they can do a good job) and ask for a quote. As far as producing the CD’s is concerned then anyone who has access to a CD writer can run off CD’s for less than £1. The most significant saving is postage – a couple of CD’s v. Techs !

Why should we do it? I have no doubt that, as time goes by, the number of users of this forum with increase and it will be the normal route through which new members are recruited. If we cannot supply this sort of information – and I would go much further over time with the addition of marque photos and the various books “available” by Messers Stephens, Clew and Underhill – people will not be convinced that we are serious.

I would also like to see a spares listing on the web site.

Anyway enough from me. I am truly sorry that I could not complete the project for reasons beyond my control but at least I can offer the benefit of the experience to others who will take up the torch.

[Deleted User]

Hi All Roger here. Sorry I have not been more help, but it is not my field and my hours are very crowded. Just to say again that if any person or group can find a way forward that is a reasonable solution, I will use whatever modest influence I have to press for the acceptance by the club.
I would like to add a couple of observations here.
First, I believe that it is absolutely necessary that the final product is easily seachable.
Secondly, and to me as an engineer, of great importance.
This montage of articles culled from the pages of Yowl over the years, has been titled “Technicalities” Because of this title, it is possible to imply that this is technical Holy Writ! It is no such thing.
If you read the “Book of the Scott”, you can find advice that has mislead generations into practices that have caused significant damage. I cite the example of how to dismantly crank sets.
The many persons who have contributed to “Technicalities” over the years, have all been very well intended perfectly good human beings.
My wife quoted me a Russian saying– “Being a nice man,–is not a profession”!
I personally, have no knowledge that “Technicalities” has ever been subjected to any evaluation or scrutiny by persons with the knowledge to confirm that the contents are valid and beneficial.
If anyone can assure me that this has been done in the past, I shall be much relieved. I confess that although I once bought a copy, it stayed unopened for years till I sold it to a new member. I am not saying this to sound like a smart arse. If after a lifetime in the design and manufacture of special machinery, I had not ingested enough knowledge to cope with a Scott from first principles, I should hand in my badge. I say this only to explain that I have never read the contents, but if we are to comit this mass of varied personal experience to be scanned into CD without further scrutiny, then we should clearly preface it with the message that the contents are personal opinions and advice and are reproduced in good faith without technical evaluation. The Scott Owners club are not responsible for any loss or damage caused by following any of the proceedures set out in this document.
I also believe that the availability of technical information is of infinately more importance to owners than to be able to read of a section club run in 1968. If the cost or the extent of the complete work is a problem, let us do the technical support first and in such a way as is fully seachable and reproduceable. With this I would combine data on each main model with photos and frame and engine number data. This should then provide a new owner with the major information he needs to get his bike on the road. Rather than hold up this process, let the Yowl content and George Stevens excellent work come along later. When it is compiled, it can be combined on to a common CD at a later date.
If it is thought that it would be prudent to assess “Technicalities, there are enough experienced men who could check this over. We could allocate a section each to several specialists. They can check the contents and give their approval. Hence the section on removing the refustication on the contra rotating floggle toggle, has been checked and approved by Mr M Mouse. Why do I write all this rubbish when I have so much to do? I suppose it is because I care and remember what it was like to start out with Scotts and be fed so much duff gen that caused me such heartache, before I twigged on that everybody that talked with such conviction, did not necessarily know what they were talking about!
Its a funny old world!

[dave bushell]

Just for information, Yowl was first issued in August 1958. I haven’t got around to counting the number of issues to date as during some years, the number of Yowls was a little irregular and the issue numbering was wrong on occaision. The number of pages varied considerably (issue 1 for instance only had 16 pages). If neccessary I will do an issue count and if really, really neccessary, a page count as well!

Dave Bushell
Club Librarian

[Deleted User]

Hello together!
John Underhill loaned my his Scott picture collection (1000…) for next years calendar and i´ll be scanning and sitting inside the house until September. Some of them have a grainy surface, these are inpossible to scan. So i tried another way.
As suggestion, i found it much easier to take a SLR-Nikon D70 digital camera with a macro-lens in a selfmade reprostand. This is also much quicker. This could also be a way to make fast and good repros of the Yowl articles. 2 pictures must be done, 1 for the text and 1 for the pictures as they need a different setting. But the cameraand the page are always at the same place, so it´s easy to replace the pictures in the text.
I could make some examples if wanted, let me know to whom i shall send it.
With my best regards, Ela
ela@provisorios.de

[Deleted User]

Hi Neil
As I understand it, £1000 would cover it as per your quote.
That, I presume is Yowl scanned solely, with no other items.
This is no critism, just a wish to be sure I understand.
Using the format you describe, is it possible to search for relevant technical pieces by putting in keywords?
If so this could fill the bill.
I am at a disadvantage, in that I am not an expert on programmes.
I do understand, however, that given the sheer volume of text and photos involved, then the facility to search quickly and accurately is absolutely crucial.
If it can be done at the figures you suggest, then, if you can assure that it will be searchable, I should then consider our application to the management comittee.
If there is any doubt as to the ability to search the body of information efficiently and, for instance, it needs Acrobat to do this, then my conviction would be that we should bite the bullet and do it properly.
I respect absolutely, the work and thought that you and others have put in to this. As I have said before, when we have a fair quote for a job that satisfies our requirements, I will do what I can to help.
Just re assure me on this search ability question
Kind Regards
Roger

[Deleted User]

Hi Neil and all
I re read Steve Bowles piece and it seemed reasonable to ask the Morgan club who did theirs and how much, then get a quote. We can then compare the facilities and systems.
This project is very important to the continuing survival of Scotts in a working condition. You only need to visit any club meeting to see the average age of the members. The members accumulated knowledge is getting very close to its end of life. We are only now starting to attract a few younger members who need information very urgently. Of all the services this club could give, technical information is the most important.
Although I said that there should be a qualification put about responsibility for the information enclosed, in truth, even if some information is questionable, it is much better than nothing.
The SOC definitely has the money to do this job properly.
So let us be sure that we do not consider a format that has limitations for the sake of saving cash. I am sure that those who will come after us will not thank us for such a decision.
I would like to take a greater part in all this but my life is very crowded indeed and I personally much appreciate the efforts many of you have put in to investigating this project.
If you feel a need to discuss with me by phone, please call me on 01664 840215 or my answer m/c is on 01664 840486
Kind Regards
Roger

[Douglas Kephart]

For my two cents worth I would agree with the essence of what Rodger Moss is saying. Searchable text ought to be a requirement.

You need to be careful about taking a cheap pill on these types of projects, particularly if new to computers and software. There seem to be a million pitfalls for the novice. For example, I have a scanner and the software with it will do Object Character Recognition (commonly abbreviated OCR). But it will only do that at the time of the scan. So if I went and only just had the scans done to save time (money) then later I wanted to add searchable text via OCR I would be up the creek without a paddle. It looks like Adobe Acrobat 6.0 has a tool to look at previously scanned *.jpg files and does the OCR (then you can save result as the Adobe Acrobat Reader file, the now universal *.pdf file type), but beware, only if the file is at certain resolutions. Also I can not seem to get it to work anyway! Beware of basing the decision to spend a significant amount of money on someone saying “Oh, X software will do that” (including what I just said) no matter who the authority. Make sure someone on the project actually sees X software do it; the consequences of “Oh, I thought it would do it” are expensive and avoidable. We have a term in the trade for such software capabilities: vaporware.

Also asking the Rudge and Morgan club about their projects is a great idea. Even if we have a dozen computer software experts in-house, one can always benefit from the hindsight of someone else’s experiences that have done the same type project and reaped the rewards, or lived with the consequences. Certainly waiting a month or two while tracking down the appropriate contact in the other clubs is not a hardship. Even if you do not use the same vendor for scanning-file preparation, they might have some suggestions of things they would have done differently (such as “Never Again!”)

I think all are convinced that the scans need to be from the original source, issues of the Yowl. The B&W pictures in the Yowl tend to be low contrast compared to some of the other one make club’s magazines. The Technicalities were photocopied at a high contrast, and all the low contrast grey tones got grouped together and converted to black. Not what you want to scan if the originals are available.

And finally (I promise) if the CD just has the Technicalities on it, then it should be a self supporting project. If only for the admittedly selfish reason that I have my copy; hey, at least I am honest! But if it had all the back issues of Yowl, then that would save me, and I think other members, the trouble and perhaps impossible task, of collecting a complete back library. And a CD takes up much less space. If it will not fit on a CD or two, then make it a data DVD. Then perhaps a Club subsidized project (and all that added responsibility of spending member’s funds); but not by raising dues, unless you plan to give every member a free copy. If everybody pays, it should be an item that a majority of members will get some use out of. Despite the volume of activity on this forum (commendable) I think it is due to a core group of very active internet savvy members that as yet still represent a minority of the club as a whole (just look at the memberlist posts data.) Commercial firms might charge more for burning the DVDs, but it seems here many new computers comes with a free DVD burner upgrade. My last one did and I did not even want it at the time, glad I have it now though. So if you have an obliging member in the UK and provide them with a pack of burnable DVD disks, you could burn on demand (same goes for CD.) Depends on how fancy you want to get, and the pros and cons of outsourcing. Again, talking to the other clubs can give some perspective on that.

And so as he steps down from his soapbox to the thunderous applause… Perhaps ‘cuase I am done. Just please do not throw e-tomatoes!

Douglas Kephart

[Author]

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